I was reading on a forum that I post on regularly about a church that had set a goal of having over 2000 people at their church on a given Sunday. At first glace it seems good and plausible, but as I began to ponder deeper on this I wondered 'but is it scriptural'? Having spent 17 years in the world of IFBx and always pushing for numbers, numbers, numbers...my mind went back to the philosophy that taught about numbers. The problem I saw was that it just isn't scriptural.
I know there were 3000 baptized on the day of Pentecost. I also know there is a book in the Bible called numbers. I am aware of the feeding of the 5000 men along with many other accounts in the Bible. But where in the Bible is the goal of having 3000 baptized? I can't find it. Where in the Bible is the goal of feeding 5000 men? I can't find it. Where in the Bible is the goal of personally having 10 saved in a week or 100 in a day? I can't find it. Where in the Bible is the goal of outdoing the numbers from the previous year? I can't find it. It sure seems that the secular philosophy of goal setting has become a sacred part of our spiritual endeavors.
Strange that this phenomenon of goal setting numbers, number, numbers is not contained in the Scriptures. One would think that Baptist people would have clear scriptural teaching on such an important philosophy of ministry of numbers, numbers, numbers. But once the goal has been set then the give-a-ways and the promotions and the incentives are placed out there for people to win. Promotions to ride the bus and incentives for the workers to win. Things like money, a big screen TV, the Wii, a PS3, a large appliance, a car, "The trip of a lifetime" all designed the appeal to the flesh in order for one to gain this worldly object and yet we call this spirituality. Can someone point me to a Scripture please?
Of course in this system of numbers, numbers, numbers...the first question Pastors ask each other is "How many did you have Sunday" or "How many were baptized Sunday" these are common questions one hears. Or maybe the question of "How many did you have saved" or "How many did your bus have?" So in order to look good, keep the ego inflated and bask in the limelight, people work hard in the flesh to accomplish the "goal" of numbers, numbers, numbers.
I wonder if God has anything to say about numbering the people? I know when David did this it was sinful. It cost the lives of many people in Israel because of his pride of numbering the people. Instead of relying on God he relied on how many they had...it seems the same today in the world of IBFx and numbers, numbers, numbers.
2 Samuel 24:10 And David's heart smote him after that he had numbered the people. And David said unto the LORD, I have sinned greatly in that I have done: and now, I beseech thee, O LORD, take away the iniquity of thy servant; for I have done very foolishly.
2 Samuel 24:15 So the LORD sent a pestilence upon Israel from the morning even to the time appointed: and there died of the people from Dan even to Beersheba seventy thousand men.
I know there were 3000 baptized on the day of Pentecost. I also know there is a book in the Bible called numbers. I am aware of the feeding of the 5000 men along with many other accounts in the Bible. But where in the Bible is the goal of having 3000 baptized? I can't find it. Where in the Bible is the goal of feeding 5000 men? I can't find it. Where in the Bible is the goal of personally having 10 saved in a week or 100 in a day? I can't find it. Where in the Bible is the goal of outdoing the numbers from the previous year? I can't find it. It sure seems that the secular philosophy of goal setting has become a sacred part of our spiritual endeavors.
Strange that this phenomenon of goal setting numbers, number, numbers is not contained in the Scriptures. One would think that Baptist people would have clear scriptural teaching on such an important philosophy of ministry of numbers, numbers, numbers. But once the goal has been set then the give-a-ways and the promotions and the incentives are placed out there for people to win. Promotions to ride the bus and incentives for the workers to win. Things like money, a big screen TV, the Wii, a PS3, a large appliance, a car, "The trip of a lifetime" all designed the appeal to the flesh in order for one to gain this worldly object and yet we call this spirituality. Can someone point me to a Scripture please?
Of course in this system of numbers, numbers, numbers...the first question Pastors ask each other is "How many did you have Sunday" or "How many were baptized Sunday" these are common questions one hears. Or maybe the question of "How many did you have saved" or "How many did your bus have?" So in order to look good, keep the ego inflated and bask in the limelight, people work hard in the flesh to accomplish the "goal" of numbers, numbers, numbers.
I wonder if God has anything to say about numbering the people? I know when David did this it was sinful. It cost the lives of many people in Israel because of his pride of numbering the people. Instead of relying on God he relied on how many they had...it seems the same today in the world of IBFx and numbers, numbers, numbers.
2 Samuel 24:10 And David's heart smote him after that he had numbered the people. And David said unto the LORD, I have sinned greatly in that I have done: and now, I beseech thee, O LORD, take away the iniquity of thy servant; for I have done very foolishly.
2 Samuel 24:15 So the LORD sent a pestilence upon Israel from the morning even to the time appointed: and there died of the people from Dan even to Beersheba seventy thousand men.
i think this is an interesting topic...easy one to get carried away with explaining why people do what they do...i see ur point about peoples ego's and the proud feeling that comes from who had how many and that makes sense. i just don't see a problem with giving an incentive away for people to reach a goal! i mean think about what the lady was saying who posted a comment on your fb page. if there wasn't an incentive given away, she might not have gotten saved! i'm sure u will hav something to say back, and that's fine. :)
ReplyDeleteIf I use an incentive to get people to invite, beg and even lie to people to get them to come to church so that I can win a prize as a worker. I am in effect motivating people to work in the flesh to accomplish a spiritual work. Quite the contradiction and one that can not please God. The motives as to why we do something matters to God and should matter to us.
ReplyDeleteI wonder out of the hundreds of thousands who have made a profession of faith at that church did it not to get saved but to get some prize? Those are the people we do a dis-service to.
I'm glad you went here Wardo. I can recall all the countless occassions where we held up our "one" finger for how many we were going to get that night before going to bed. I can recall countless occassions of standing next to my soulwinning partner, listeneng to them give some rappid-fire gospel while the "convert" is standing at their front door, politely freezing to death, holding back their pets, trying to ignore the jeers of their friends and/or spouse inside while they stand there and pretend to listen to us. And this would never phase us in our efforts to just get them to nod their heads when we needed them to nod their heads, say yes when we needed them to say yes, say no when we needed them to say no, and then finally 1-2-3 repeat after me when we needed them to 1-2-3 repeat after me. All this to convince ourselves that we're "winning the lost", returning to church with our heads held high, thinking we've really done something other than lie to ourselves. To be fair, I've seen plenty ACTUAL salvations occur on those nights, as well, but we'd do better to care more for the people than the numbers.
ReplyDeleteThis winning Souls to Christ for a prizes,or the high number is new to me.How can a true believer fall in this trap,but in these days we can see just anything and more strange thing entering our Church's.It must be tough on a preacher when they here a new member say we uses to do this in the church I uses to go too.The more idea that come into our faith Church's the worst they become in my opinion.
ReplyDeleteI see you in church my friends.